008 Debrow side 2
I could bet you they had stories they kind of kept to themselves. My grandmother, my father’s mother, was the midwife of the entire town. She’d delivered children – most of all the children in the town for people who couldn’t afford to go to the hospital or have a doctor. That was my grandmother. I remember stories about her be gotten up in the middle of the night in snowstorms and riding mules and everything else to go to a house to deliver babies. My grandfather, her husband, helped to dig out the area that is now the Blue Ridge Lake.
I remember things like that of people – they were always telling stories about people working. I guess that was to instill sense of stability in the kids. But, no stories about the Civil War, I don’t remember any of those. Now, someone may have been talking about them and I just don’t remember them.
I can remember Mr. Weaver who worked for the railroad. He was always talking about walking to his job when that railroad was coming up the mountain. He would always tell us it was getting closer and closer, I don’t have far to walk now. There are some pictures in the museum. I don’t know if Mr. Weaver is in any of those pictures, but I can remember seeing him, most of the time, with his little bag of lunch. He would be going to work. I’m told that Mr. Weaver helped to lay tracks and that he didn’t have to have any instruments – I don’t know what they used. But, he did it by natural site???? So, he was valuable person to the railroad. And he enjoyed his work.
• You’re talking about the railroad that connected Old Fort to Black Mountain?
Yes.
• Not the Black Mountain – Mitchell?
No he didn’t work on that one. I don’t know – I’ll have to do more research – there were so many people killed during the time that railroad was built. It’s very difficult to get to the right sources so I figure that one day I’ll have to prepare to spend a day in Raleigh, and spend the night, and go look the information up in the archives. That’s where it’s located. It’s hard – actually I put bits and pieces together so the genealogical society in Buncombe County. I could get it off the internet, but I’m not that internet savvy, yet.
I don’t know what else I could tell you that would help you about…. I remember when Carver Elementary School which is now Carver Center – I remember when that was built. We were going to Stephen Lee (sp?) School at that time. And, I remember that after they completed that building , the state of North Carolina told the people, “We don’t have any more funds to build a kitchen and a lunchroom.” So the black women in the community got together. They held bake sale and sold chicken dinners. They had fish fries. I understand they had chitlin dinners. You know, they baked pies and cakes — all the women. They raised enough money to finish the cafeteria, and the kitchen and park center. And, buy the stove and refrigerator and all the furniture that went in there.
I also remember that there – the children had to have a way to go to Stephen’s Lee high school from Black Mountain, and there was no school bus. All of the black men in the community donated money so the school bus could be bought.
• And where is that?
In Asheville. I think it was Stephen Lee high school. It might have been a bus just to transport children here in Black Mountain. But I do believe it was for Stephen’s Lee. The people that did that were a – Mr. Gus Jackson who was also a business person in Black Mountain, and his house still stands next door there – Mr. Bay Jones, and of course my grandfather Horace Rutherford, and Fred Miller. I know I’m leaving out a lot of names, because just everybody in the community became part of that effort. I would suspect that there was also white people who donated money for that as well. Nothing around here ever got done without everybody doing it together. Even though a lot of people don’t like to talk about it, there are a few of us who will come right out and say – well you know – there are a few of us who just tell like it is. Why lie about it? I mean, that’s the way it is around here.
You just have to look at the people to know that there was a lot of mixing up of races. How can you live in a community like Black Mountain, as isolated as it was, and not having people seeing each other and being attracted to each other – and doing what comes naturally as given us by God. There’s no way you can get around that. I see you and like you, hey, let’s meet out behind the barn tonight. And that’s just the way it went.
• Are you tired?
No. I want you to get as much information – I think it is a great project. I love my town.
• Can you talk about when integration came in?
I left here shortly before integration actually happened. In some ways, I think, it was not one of the best things that happened for black businesses. Everybody was so excited and interested to go and see –you know something different. But, it did affect black business quite a bit. That’s when — even in Asheville – that’s when those businesses that were on Eagle St. –now they’re trying to bring some of those businesses back. There were a lot of restaurants; there were a lot of beauty parlors, there was a drug store – there was all kind of stuff happening there. And there were these businesses here in Black Mountain that just went by the wayside, because they lost their customers. At that time, my mother still had, I guess, a beer license, but the business just wasn’t there anymore. And she was getting older. And, of course, her children didn’t have any interest in running a jute joint. So, she just let it go by the wayside. If I had known at that particular time, I could have gotten a deal – just enough – not that I wanted to sell beer, but just enough to keep it open —???so now I’m going to have to go through a lot of red tape in order to do anything with the building, because it zoned residential so there are not very many things you do here.
• Are you trying to open it?
I would like to if I could find a way for a little funding, I would like to start a little community center over there – a place for people to meet. And maybe some people would like to have little private parties and stuff there. Just that, I’m not going to try and do anything other than that. The building is old and I think it needs to be preserved. That’s the only reason why.
• You talked about churches in the area, where did you go to church?
I was raised Baptist and I went to Mills Baptist Church. They always had – what did they do in the summer? – they always had summer-school. That’s how they kept us out of trouble.
• Bible school?
Bible school, thank you. We always had Bible school, but they always had interesting things for us to do. I learned how to weave baskets from a young lady that was a missionary. On Sundays we went to church three times. First you went to Sunday school. Then you went to the Sunday services and then you went back in the evening for they called BYTU – what was BYTU? Baptist Youth – something, something –I can’t remember that. But, those were the four times we went to church. And heaven forbid they have some special program – you’d stay in church all day long. Of course, there was no chewing gum. Everything was very – you had to do what everybody told you to do. During those days, everybody watched everybody’s children. Everybody that was an Elder in the community was your aunt, your uncle, and you addressed them, thusly. Or it was Miss so and so or aunt so and so. You always respected the Elders. And if they caught you being naughty, they were allowed to give you a spanking. No one ever beat any kids around here, but they might give you a little slap on the leg – or a little switch on the leg which we probably deserved. Depending on how bad your infraction was, you might also get it once you got home.
So, I think that was good. It built a sense of community. And everybody looked out for everyone. There were no children going hungry or there was no one that was going to abuse any kid.
• Was there any contention between the Baptist and the juke joint that your grandfather was running?
No. They just knew that he was making an honest living. They would come here on Saturday night and drink as much corn liquor and beer and what they call bonded booze, but they would go to the ABC store, and then get up and put on their Sunday best and go to church on Sunday – just like nothing ever happened.
My grandfather was looked up to in the community, because he was a business person. He helped to take care of the people in the community. When they didn’t have jobs in the winter time, and didn’t have money to go to the A & P, they knew that they could come to Horace Rutherford and he would supply them with some food. He said if you get any money, pay me back. Most of the time those people didn’t come up with any money. They were too poor to do that.
I can remember a family of people that lived – I can’t remember where they lived — — Since my grandmother was known as a cook – she was a professional cook — she and her kids would pick wild blueberries and bring them to my grandmother and sell them to her. I would always be so glad to see that woman coming. Because I knew we were going to get a fresh blueberry ????? All kinds of things like that were going on in the community. No one bothered you because you had a juke joint. It was a way to make a living. It wasn’t hitting anybody on the head and taking their money. There was no problem with that. I think they tend to be more conservative about that now then they were when I was a young person. It’s still a nice way to make a living, and people are going to go out and drink beer and dance.
You know, the churches never had any real serious feuds with each other. I guess because they were all family members. Right now, some of my cousins go to M ??’s Chapel Baptist church, but the mother and father go to the Methodist church. So, what are you going to do? Now, some them select a church because it’s close to me and I could walk to church. Otherones,–and sometimes they switch off. If they get mad at the minister or some of the church members over here, well, they’ll just go to church over here. That kind of thing goes on all the time. It’s kind of funny.
• What was your grandfather called ? What did people call him?
Uh — the good doctor. I called him Sissy. I’m not quite sure how that started. He called me Sissy one day. I think that’s what my mother told me. I was learning how to talk so I called him Sissy. That’s what he became to every grandchild after that – Sissy. And, he certainly was not a sissy. That was just his little pet name for me.
• Do you remember any big dramatic events that happened? Did he throw anybody out or ……?
There was always somebody getting thrown out. — Because people liked to fight. Once they get – There were a couple of characters in the community, and they couldn’t hold their booze very well. So, when they would get that one drink that would push them over the edge. Then they would want to harass some of the other customers – and that’s the point my grandfather would get his back up and escort them to the door. If they really got out of hand, then they might get whacked . No one ever got shot. There might be some shooting in the air if you were acting – really up before the sheriff was called. Then sometimes Mr. Brown would show up himself, and sometimes he might send a deputy. That didn’t amount to that much either, because they would just take him home. They never put anybody in jail unless they did something real bad.
My uncle for instance – this is my father’s brother – he served – what you asked me about before – the Civil War. He didn’t serve in the Civil War, but he was in WW II. Something happened to him. I’m not quite sure what happened to him in the war, but he turned into a kleptomaniac –only when he drank. He would do things like – he’d be off with the guys and he would get drunk. He would decide to wander into a five and dime store in Black Mountain. He loved to go into that store for some reason when he was drunk. He would go in there and steal fingernail polish or fingernail polish remover or some stupid thing – that you know he’s not going to use. What’s he going to do with fingernail polish and fingernail polish remover? I guess he would just kind of hang around being obnoxious. Eventually, they would wind up calling the sheriff to come and get him. And, he would always bring him right home to my grandmother. “Ann, here’s your son, I brought him home.” I remember him saying that. My uncle Ben would be caught with the fingernail polish remover in his pocket. Now, when he was sober, he could hold an intelligent conversion. He worked. But, when he got paid he’d go to the local brewery, and that was the end of his sanity. This always happened at least once a week during the summer. In the winter he stayed home, because it was too cold to out there wandering around. So that’s the one story I d0 remember about someone being in the war and how it affected him. I imagine the war is not pleasant for anybody – it really affected his head.
• I remember there were street dances in Black Mountain. Were they….as well….do you know? There used to be big block parties.
Right. There used to be a lot of that around here. A lot of time they would have it around election time, believe it or not. During election time, it was always a big to-do around here, because if you wanted to be elected you always went to the community, collected all the people and took them to the polls. And, you also gave them booze. You know, I often wondered if those people actually went in and voted for who they said they voted for. But, you know once you go in and close that curtain, you don’t know what’s going to happen.
Election time around here was a big thing. They’d always say I’m going to take you to the polls. Never give them money but their favorite booze always seemed to appear from someone. I can remember that boxes of booze and stuff were bought and brought to places like my grandfather’s and other places. You know, to get the people to vote a certain way. At least, you tell them you’re going to vote that way. It was affective, because the people that were running for office always got elected again. I certainly don’t say that to take away from Lawrence Brown as a sheriff. He was the sheriff of Buncombe County for many years. His family was a good family. Of course, they had their bad apples like everybody else. But, basically, Lawrence Brown was a good, at-heart person. I think it was that more than anything else that kept getting him elected year after year. Or, term after term after term, I should say. He was a good friend of my grandfather’s and whenever we would see him in the streets, he would take us home. We were just like part of his family.
I remember the drug store. This is something I forgot to tell you. I was a spoiled little thing. I was the first child on my maternal side of the family — spoiled rotten. My grandfather spoiled me. My aunt spoiled me. We were in Black Mountain one day and I wanted ice cream. They didn’t have any money to buy me any ice cream. So, I promptly sat down on the sidewalk for a stranger to come around. Someone should of (sound of slapping) But, I did that, and the man that owned the drugstore, — it had to be Steve Danny – he came out and said to my aunt, “Now what did you do that child?” She said she didn’t anything to her. She just wants ice cream. He went right back in and got me some ice.
cream.
Also, my grandmother, my paternal grandmother, — People would always have money to pay her when she delivered their children. I would love to go everyplace with my grandmother and she liked it to. Now during that time – the sacks – 50 pounds or 100 pound sacks of grain that you would buy – they had patterns on them and it was cotton material. Women would take the material from those sacks and use it to make clothes. And, my grandmother would make her a dress and me a dress. Well we would go into town and I would come home with a pocketful of money, because everybody would say, “Oh, what a cute little girl.” And they were giving me money: pennies, dimes, nickels, quarters. I always made sure my grandmother gave me pockets on my dress. I would come home and I’d have two pockets full of money.
I had a big jar that I kept my money in that people gave me. Now talking about a spoiled brat, that’s how the people of Black Mountain treated kids. And, of course they valued my grandmother, because she was delivering all the babies.
• What was she called?
Aunt Ann. Now her picture in the museum is Annie Moorehead. She was really a very attractive woman. Too bad I wasn’t more like her. There’s a big picture of her in the museum. I think it says midwife on there. That’s what everybody in town called her, Aunt Ann.
My grandmother had a desire for para ????
• What is that?
I understand it gave you a feeling of euphoria. My grandmother had been known to nibble a little on that stuff. She could get it from the pharmacist – the drugstore, because she did deliver babies. But, sometimes I think she had a tendency to get a little bit carried away. I remember one day the druggist told her, well you kind of had your supply for the month, or the week whatever it was. No one ever denied her completely, but that was his way of looking out for her – and also looking out for the community to make sure she come back when she needed it and not nipping it up herself. I really would like to know what that stuff tastes like. I bet it was bitter.
• Katherine, did you ever know ? Black Mountain college clubs?
All of it. Let’s see. It seems that they would put on plays. And, there was always some activity going on. The kids would go there. I remember going there quite a bit. They were quite active in the community when the college was around. We were always going over there for one thing or another. I do remember having a play over there once.
I’m a frustrated actress. I love to do stuff like that. We always had plays at the church – the Old Mill Baptist church, and I believe some of the young people from the college would come and help with that as well. They were always around. There was a lot of interaction between the students at the college and the people in the community.
• (Inaudible………………)how weirdoes they were. And a lot of people said, “Stay away from those people.”
Well, I don’t know what group that was. That’s not how they interacted with us – with the black community. Now, of course, that’s the time I remember. There may have been a time when there were weirdoes, but people get some very set ideas about things sometimes, and it’s going to be that way.
• Where was college? (Inaudible…….)down there.
Do you know where the Dorothy Wall???camp is?
• (inaudible..)
Yes, that’s right. We used to go over there quite a bit, too.
I was really young, then, but I do remember. You didn’t have many places to go so the places you did go kind of stand out. I do remember the college, and maybe I was naïve to what was going on. We never had any trouble with anybody there. They were always very nice.
• Do you remember specifically any plays you saw or any concerts you heard?
No. I don’t.
•What kind of plays did you put on at the church?
Sometimes they were kind of serious, but mostly they were comedies.– something that the kids could act in. They were always having something for the kids – either little recitals or we would memorize things from the Psalms and things from the Bible. The women would always give the kids prizes. The name of the women’s club that helped to raise most of the money for multiple functions in the community was the ‘Willingorkers.’ They would always have little prizes for the kids. They’d make a little contest out of it so the kids could get into things.
I remember the first one they had, I told my mother. “I don’t want to do it.” Well, that went over real big. My mother told me you can’t do that. I’m president of the club. How’s it going to look if you don’t participate with the rest of the kids. — I really didn’t want to do it. So, I said okay. I memorized – I believe it was the first Psalm. I was so nervous doing that thing. I hated it. Well, I won the first prize. And then all the kids were mad at me. One of the woman told my mother that she rigged the judges give me the prize. It turned out to be the scandal of the church. But it wasn’t true. I actually won it on my own, and I didn’t want to do it.
There were always certain kids in the community that were always making a fuss about something. They were my cousins.
• Did you go to college?
Yes. I went to UC Berkely.
(inaudible…)
Yes, my bother and my biological father got a divorce when I was around 10 or 11 years old. Then my mother, of course, created a scandal in Black Mountain by falling in love with another guy. They decided to live together. in That was quite a scandal. Number one, you didn’t get divorced. She created a scandal by doing that. Then, she makes it worse by leaving town with this other man. That was the scandal of the day. Eventually, my sister and I stayed with my grandmother, my mother’s mother. So I got to hang out around the juke joint. We stayed here for a year, then my mother came and got us and took us to Cleveland. I graduated from high school in Cleveland, Ohio.
My aunt, my mother’s younger sister, moved to California – San Francisco in 1956. After I worked in Cleveland for awhile, I knew I wanted to go to college, and she had already set up residence there. Before I went to UC Berkley, I went to one of the Jr. colleges in the area for two years. Then I went to UC Berkley. I loved those strange Berkley people. I had a great time there.
• What was your stepfather’s name?
Forest (??) Stepp. He was a carpenter, and a very good carpenter. He was an excellent cabinet maker. He’s the one that did some remodeling on this house. He put some paneling in. Of course, this was done years ago, but this is his handy work in this kitchen.
• (inaudible…)
Yes, it is. His mother and father lived on the Cragmont side of town. Forest was always doing some kind of carpentry work in the area. He worked on carpentry. He was quite good. There were always people building summer houses. That building down there that used to be the Hardy’s – he was the carpenter on that job. He was always doing carpentry work all over the area for people in Montreat and all over.
My dad, on the other hand, — let’s see what shall we call him – my biological father. He was so funny. I can remember him being in the bathroom taking a shower, and he’s getting himself all primpt up to go out. He’s at the mirror, looking at himself. He says to my mother, “Don’t you think I look like Douglas Fairbanks with dark skin?” I thought my mother was going to die.—I thought I was going to die. — But that’s the way he thought of himself. He was a handsome guy. He was just always primming around all over the place. –
I don’t remember my father having any particular profession. He was always into the selling of corn liquor. After they got divorce, he had a nightclub of some kind in Washington, DC. Most of the young men that left and went to that area – even now they tell me stories about when they went to Washington. Of course, the first person they would look up was my dad at his club. I guess he got that from my grandfather.
• Do you know the name…?
I have no idea. I’ll have to ask my cousin what was the name of that place. I never went there. But, that’s what he did. When he decided to mover back here and retire, and he did move back here. He lived in Asheville. There are some apartments over there for senior citizens. I can’t remember the name of the street, but that’s where I went to visit him in his last days before he died. For all his having fun in his younger days, he didn’t accomplish very much, but as long as he died happy, that’s all we can hope for. He was quite a colorful character – as were a lot of people in my family. And I hope that I’ve given you something that you can make a good story out of.
• Inaubible…
I’m sure you could. There were lots of cultural people in my family. They had all kinds of talents. There were all kinds of people in this community doing all kinds of things. I remember John Wilson who lived over on the Cragmont side – also a character. He was kind of a con man of the area.
During the war, beef was on ration. My mother had rations to buy sugar and – some other things – all kinds of things. Mr. Wilson came by one day and told my mother, “I got some beef.” My mother said I’ll have some. He said he stew beef and she said that’s all right, I’ll take it. She cooked it and she said that this is not beef. It’s gotta be goat. He killed off a couple of goats and came all around the community selling it as beef. But actually, the goat’s meat is good meat. I like goat meat. But the people weren’t too happy, because he charged them beef prices. I think now probably goat is more expensive than beef than at that time.
There were all kinds of people around here doing all kinds of things. It almost reminds me of Mayberry RF…When you think of Andy and Barny and what was that little man’s name? – always coming up with a scheme – that’s the way Mr. Wilson was.
• Katherine, our final question is how has Swannanoa Valley changed? Has has it changed for the better and how has it changed for the worse?
Well – I think we made some progress and helped some people to live here, you know, some of the older people have been able to stay here and survive and maintain their properties – so that they opened factories so they can have jobs.
The worse thing that happened is that there have not been jobs for young blacks to remain in the area – not only young blacks but young whites as well. Somehow we need to do something about that. That, I think, is the worse thing that has happened in this area – is that all of our young people move away, because there is no place for them to be employed. And I don’t know how we’re going to change that.
I was hoping that the committee with the future vision of the future, whatever they have going on in Black Mountain right now — that’s one of the issues that they are going to address, how we are going to be able to keep the young blacks and the young whites from moving away and taking all their talents with them. I think that this is a community that is worth saving, it’s a community that has a lot of history, and I would like to see it stay basically the way it is. I would like for us not to grow any more in terms of buildings, too many more houses and getting too many more big things. I’m a small town girl even though I lived in the San Francisco Bay area most of my life. If there were opportunities here, I would have remained here. I’m back here now. I love it here and I love it just the way it is. But, of course, you can’t keep things the way they are. Things have to grow and change. And, I just hope we can find a way to help it grow and change, but still maintain some of the charm that it has – or it just won’t be Black Mountain anymore. And, of course, I won’t be here to put my two cents worth in either. But, the young people need to be here to be involved and have their say about their town. So, somehow we have to get them involved. I don’t know what that is. I don’t have the answer. Maybe if you ask enough people, some smart one will come up with the right answer.
I still love Black Mountain as a town and that’s the reason why I still like to try and stay involved with it. I am so glad that you asked me to do this. This is so wonderful!
• It’s been lovely.
In May—————–(tape cut out..)….we have some equipment…
• Is your husband local? Debrow? Is that a local name?
No. He’s from Florida. (tape cut out)
Someone sent me a list of the various ways to spell it. My husband’s family spells it ‘Debrow.’ I’ve seen Devero – I’ve seen Debraugh – Scotch – as a matter of fact, that list was about three pages long. I just went Oh my God, this is going to take me another ten years to go through these names. I do intend to get that book that says a – the list of Debrows, because I think that’s where that list came from.
But, Seldem (sp?)had always been into heavy equipment as a kid. His sisters tell me that he used get punished quite a bit, because he would get off the school bus hauling some piece of heavy equipment. He was raised by his grandmother. He’s supposed to be at home, and it is dark and he’s out chasing the heavy equipment. The construction crew – the foreman would bring him home. Seldem’s (sp?) a small guy so she was always very worried about him. He wasn’t worried. He was out chasing equipment. So he’s still chasing equipment.
• Where in Florida is he from?
Arcadia. That is….
• ….the foot part.
Ya, I think that’s what he’s always telling people. It’s right outside of — C —-? I think that’s where it is.
• Okay.
I think that’s where it is. You see, I never went to Florida until I got engaged to him. And we got married late in life. We will have been married ten years in February. We went…(laughter etc….indecipherable to me..)—————end of tape.