008 KATHERINE DEBROW, 10-10-01 (2 of 2 side one)
Genealogical information:
Date of birth: March 12, 1939
Where were you born? Black Mountain, N.C.,
High Top Colony Road—You know where Blue Ridge Rd.is? You go by Ingles – you by highway 9 where it branches off to the right. Go West on Blue Ridge Rd. & turn left on to Lakey Gap, and then High Top Colony Road is there; it goes around into kind of a hollow there. There’s that community there where I was born in.
• What was your father’s name? Charles Daugherty
• What was his birthday? He was born June 12—let me think about the year – probably 1918.
• And, where was he born? Black Mountain, High Top Colony Rd.
• Do you happen to know the date that he died? He died in 1984, I believe it was – I’m not sure on that.
• And, your mother’s name? Peggy (Rutherford)
• Her date of birth? Aug. 21, 1919
• Where was she born? Black Mountain; As a matter of fact she was born right across the street from here. The ??? place.
• And, your father’s father? Ben Daugherty. He was from Black Mountain, and I’m going to assume he was born in Black Mountain.
• And, your father’s mother? Annie Morehead?? Daugherty. She was born in Black Mountain also. As a matter of fact, there is a nice picture of her in the museum.
• And, your mother’s father? Horace C. Rutherford.
• And, where was he born? Swannanoa.
• And, your mother’s mother? Sophia Myacc
• Do you have any birthdates? Uh…I can look them up. I don’t know, but I do have that information.
My grandmother was from Jacksonville, Fla., a real outsider.
• inaudible 302 Flat Creek Rd.
• inaudible
All right. During the time that my grandmother came here, Montreat, Ridgecrest and Blue Ridge, the tourist that came from all over had servants; cooks, chauffeurs, house-servants, maids whatever. My grandmother was a professional cook. She graduated from the ??? College. That’s someplace in Florida, I believe. And, she was employed by a family as their cook. She traveled all over with them.
And, so this particular summer, she came to Montreat with them and met my grandfather, a dashing handsome, guy. He was quite handsome. They met, and I assume they fell in love and got married and she stayed here.
My grandfather got all buildings out there that he apartments to. (Name? ) and he operated that…that was his business. He had a juke joint. People came from all over the area. And, so I imagine my grandmother came down for a little entertainment, and met the local catch. I’m sure they didn’t call it that during those days. That building was built around 1918, I believe. It’s still standing there. They must have gotten married somewhere along that time, he must have been in the process of building it. So, that’s how she got here from Florida.
I can remember when I was a kid she would go visit some relatives that she had in Florida on occasion. I can remember her bringing a little turtle dove — painted on the back, it said, St. Petersburg.
But, I never went to Florida until I met the man I married who happened to be from Florida. And, that was about ten years ago and that was my first trip to Florida. – I don’t want to get you off track of what your…
• We have no particular agenda. We do want to hear about the African American story in Black Mountain and in the Valley.
Okay.
• Your personal history is part of that – what we call folk history is peoples’ personal strand of the bigger picture. So, that’s what makes it come alive on the stage. This actually happened to some specific person – a generic story.
• I’m curious to know how long did the juke joint operate. Did your grandmother still operate it when she got married.?
Oh, ya. My aunts and uncles were born – my mother was born directly across the street. I’m sure some of the other siblings were born there. Several years later, my grandfather built this house. And, all he did was operate that juke joint.
He also had in the back a couple of little cabin type structures that he rented out for people to have their own private places. They would come as servants – for the people who had come into the area. He did that as well.
I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if my grandfather didn’t sell a little corn ?? ??? on the side. That was a way to make money. During the summer time, of course, the business was really great, because you had this influx of people that came with the families from all over. But, in the winter time the population decreased quite a bit, so that just left the local people here. So, they had to have some way to survive. Now I always thought Black Mountain was a very unique community in that respect. Because, even though there was segregation obviously in 1918, the blacks and whites worked together to help each other survive during the winter.
Until, you know, the tourist would come back again in the summer and everybody would start working again at the Assembly Inn. Montreat was always a very popular place for the local-residence black and white, to work. So if they had a good time there in the summer time.
So, my grandfather, amazing that…. to the point that he was unable to work. He became ill. And that was in 1959, I think. And, my mother and my stepfather moved to Cleveland around 1953. But, when my grandfather became ill, my mother moved back here to take care of her mother and father. And so then she started to operate the Juke Joint.
At that time, Lawrence Brown was still the sheriff of Buncombe County, and he and my grandfather were very good friends. As a matter of fact, the local story is that Sheriff Brown controlled the Caucasian community and my grandfather was the sheriff (laughter) of the black community. And my grandfather always wore two 45s. He was also known to be quite a character in terms of no fighting. (laughter) You know when he was out there, he was quite handy in getting rid of the guys ??????? (laughter) Little pistol whipping I think they used to call it. Like the western days. So he was known for that.
Also, I remember my grandfather had a sign on the door of the Juke Joint. ‘The Juke Doctor is in’ – so the place was open. And when he would leave, he’d flip that sign around and it said ‘The Juke Doctor is out.” That’s what made me think – now maybe that’s why he was selling a little corn liquor, because most of the fellow would call the liquor medicine – especially for the hangover that they’d have the day after. So, he opened all day and sometimes my grandmother would make sandwiches, and sometimes she would make complete meals that they would sell.
So they had that kind of boarding house as well as selling the beer. And he had a juke box that kept all the latest music on it. And, of course that was my thrill because I loved to dance and so did everybody else in Black Mountain.
So everybody came to this place. The name of it was Roseland Gardens. That’s why I have that sign out in front – trying to preserve a little history. Everybody came here to dance, and I do mean everybody that lived in the community. They came here to bring beer and they came to dance. You can talk to any person in Black Mountain that’s my age, or a little bit older, and they will say, ‘your grandfather had the best music in town.’ They loved it – black and white. That’s why I said Black Mountain was very unique in that respect, because a camaraderie between the people, if you will, because they had to help and support each other. That same feeling still remains here. Especially among the older people, and I think they pass it on to the younger generation to a certain extent.
• Did they have any live music over there?
Oh, yes. Once in a while we’d have live music. The old piano is still out there. And, it was also a theater – once a week. On Fridays and Saturdays, the kids could go to the theater. The old projector is still there. The holes he cut in the wall for the projector to go through to the screen – you can still see it in the building. And, the place that he had built so that in the front of the building appeared like an actual theater. The little box where the woman sat to sell the tickets, that was all glass enclosed. You could walk up to there and buy your ticket to go to the theater and also to the dance.
• How much did he charge?
Oh, gosh, I think it was probably ten or fifteen cents when I was a kid. That was to see the movie. He actually rented these movies. I remember they came in a huge reels in tin cans. So every week he would get a new series. We watching Roy Rogers, Red Rider, and the Phantom and all of those old classics. We were watching all that old stuff.
• Were ??down town before ???
Probably not. That theater didn’t last very long there. And I don’t remember if any white children in the neighborhood came to the theater. I just can’t remember that. They certainly came for the good dancing, but I don’t know if they did the movies or not.
• Do you remember some of the songs that were on the juke box?
I remember my favorite was also my grandfather’s favorite, ???????? it’ll come back to me – a jazz song. Oh, God, I loved that song. Daryl Watson’s – a Rockin Robins, Walter Fats Domino, Blueberry Hill, — there are a lot of old records around. They’re old 45s up in the attic. Of course, you can’t play them because they were all worn out on the juke box. We could get the names of them.
Let’s see…I’m really going back here for some of these songs now. Ella Fitzgerald was really popular.
There was another group a little bit before the time of James Brown. Some of these groups I’ve totally forgotten, and I’m going to go up and get those records so I can refresh my memory.
Usually the man for the juke box would come, I believe, once a month, and he would usually take the 45s away – they weren’t the 45’s my grandfather stored those away— the 78s, that’s right. He’d take those away. I have no idea how my mom wound up with some of those old 45s. I do know that at one time that old juke box was out there, but it got sold. The juke box was still there so I imagine that’s how all those old 45s wound up here. Somehow they must have bought that eventually. The records were left on it.
But, he did change the music once a month. That was always my choice to be around when that man would come – I can’t remember his name – to put the latest music on the juke box. I was young. I was not allowed in there. I could go in there in the day time and get candy, because my grandfather kept some around and canned goods – particularly for the people in the neighborhood in the wintertime. When people didn’t work, my grandfather always had food so he could help the people in the community that were not working. I can remember people coming and getting boxes of canned goods – whatever he had – crackers – just something so they could have food.
Also, this white building on the corner – a long white building. One part of that used to be Mr. Fred Miller’s store. He sold ice-cream on Sundays. He made ice-cream and sold it on Sundays. That was the place I used to hang out a lot when I was a kid. He would always get up early in the morning – the schoolbus would come to the corner – He would get up early in the morning and make a fire in his one heater, so we could stand inside in the winter time and not have to be out in this cold. He was a very nice old man. He always kept a lot of candy. That was one you could buy fudge and big square cakes for a penny. And, they had sugar daddies and all day suckers and crackers in those big glass jars. I do have a couple of those big glass jars that were left.
• It was like a general store?
Well, it was more like a convenience store. He sold bread, eggs, milk, and pots. He did not sell any alcoholic beverages. He left that to my grandfather. And, he always stayed open until a certain time in the evening, around six. I can remember – and also he sold animal feed – because during that time people were still allowed to have a few animals. They could have chickens and I guess cows, and I specifically remember that he would have feed for chicken. I don’t know whether he had big sacks of flour and corn meal. He probably did. It was kind of like a general store. And, next to it, he also had a fruit stand on Montreat Rd. When I was young, growing up here. Of course, he had every fruit that you could imagine that was grown locally, and he had some shipped in from – Georgia, I believe. Georgia peaches, I remember that. (couldn’t get name of fruit stand)
One of our friends, says that everytime he comes down Montreat Rd., he had a store on the corner of E St. and Montreat Rd. They turned that place into an apartment building.
One of my friends says everytime he comes down Montreat Rd., by the time you get to the crest there, on E St., you could smell fruit. So it really was a lovely smell. We did a lot of hanging out at the fruit stand. There wasn’t that much that young people had entertainment wise. That’s why my grandfather had the movies. He wouldn’t let us come in if we were under-age because he sold alcohol. Of course some of would sneak in – not me. I got put out right away. But, we would go to a lady house that always had the kids gather to sing Christian songs – anything for young people to get together. We used to do a lot of that – take hikes to Mount Mitchell—that was all we had to do and that was fun. We loved it. That was our treat. The day that school was out, we would all pack a picnic lunch and hike up Mount Mitchell – that was our celebration. Interesting how simple things could bring so much pleasure at that time.
• How long would it take you hike up? Did you ride sometimes up there?
No, we walked the whole way. There would be about ten of us altogether – most of the kids in the community. I would pack a lunch – something we could carry on our back or on our side. We would just hike. Of course, I had to be back home before it got dark. You had to be back at a certain time, because nobody wanted their kids stumbling around in the woods. There were animals out there. We would run into snakes, but I don’t ever remember running into a bear or anything large, but some smaller animals, yes. Of course, being kids, we teased around with animals all the time. No one ever had an accident. No one ever got bitten. No one ever got lost. We all showed up back home when we were supposed to. And, that was all they ever wanted for us. We probably hiked for about 3-4 hours and then we sit down and eat – play around. And then hike some more, turn around and come back. So, we made sure we were gone all day.
• Do you remember when the first time was that you were allowed to go into your grandfather’s place?
I was 12. Of course, I was highly supervised. But I did get to go in and dance for a little while – hang out with the grown-ups and sit at the bar – then it was time for me go to bed. I spent most of the time in the back of this house. It was quite different then. They had windows that swung out. It was kind of like a sun-room in the back of the house. And I spent most of my time hanging out the window looking at the people. They were out there dancing, having a good time.
I remember once – I must have been about 8 or 9 years old – and this group of gypsies came through town. Some one, I don’t know, someone in the town told them – they were looking for a place to spend the night – they wound up here, asking my grandfather if they could camp out in that dairy. They got their tents out and they asked my grandfather if they could build a little fire. Of course, I was absolutely fascinated with this – hanging out the window again looking at everything because they wouldn’t let me go socialize and I truly wanted to. They built a fire and got out their musical instruments. They played and they danced. It was just wonderful. I loved it. And, I was so upset that would not let me go over and talk to those children.
A part of what my grandfather did with Roseland Gardens – it was also a picnic area. Local churches and churches from Asheville would come. I don’t know what you call that. I guess it was a picnic, but on the hill there where I had my house. There are still a lot of rhododendrons up there. They’ll be there for ever. And, laurels and beechnut trees and all kind of local flora and fauna growing on that mountain, on that little incline right there.
But, my grandfather had made like a park and he had a little stand up there and he sold soft drinks. He had a place to pitch horse shoes. He had little benches in the woods. I guess the girls and boys could escape and do a little smooshing.
I remember all these little church groups would come in the summertime and bring their entire congregation. They had a picnic. They’d have a cookout and have sandwiches. They’d stay all day and then go on their merry way.
There was lots of stuff going on in the little community. It was called the Brookside community. My grandfather wasn’t the only one that had a juke joint here. At the end of that bridge that’s on East St., (or E) Mr. Joe Long – he has some family that still lives on that side – he had a little concrete building where he had a little juke joint in there. But, it was nothing as fancy as what my grandfather had. He had a juke box and a very small area where maybe 3 or 4 couples could dance.
This house on the corner has a ??? Flatcreek belongs to Eddie L Kingston and he has a little blue house next store. He did rent that out on occasion, but he’s 82 years old now and he doesn’t like to be bothered with too much. But, upstairs at that place, there was also a little juke joint. So, everyone got in on the act after they saw how successful my grandfather was.
It would be very interesting – there was always a trickle of people from my grandfather’s place, across the bridge to Eddie’s. Oh, there’s one other one that I forgot. Miss Sandy McClain (sp?) She was known for her cooking. Between her and my grandfather, they captured most of the people that would come to the juke joint. And, her place was – I don’t even remember what they called the names of these places – I was just a little bit too young to remember. Her’s was – the two of them lived on E St. There was a vacant lot – and in that vacant lot is where Miss McClain had her juke joint. So there was quite a bit of activity going on around here in the early 1920s.
As time progressed, my grandfather – I guess these people got wind of what my grandfather did – the other three places closed down. My mother was operating this one in the late 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s. It was still there. But the rest of them were gone by the wayside. Now were moving into integration and that changed quite a bit of things in this town.
The old juke joints were the best places to have fun. We danced – dancing was the thing. The music of that era – that was the way you let off steam instead of fighting. – I loved to dance.
• Do you remember any the bands or anybody that played?
They were all local people. I don’t remember the names of any of them. Sometimes my grandfather would have someone come from the Glen Alpine area. You know, maybe a local group of people that would get together. They were probably well known, because I can remember that he would always have a sign printed, when he was going to have a dance, and put it all over the various communities so people would know there was going to be a live band that night.
I remember a young man that did country and western music. I’m sure sure they didn’t call it country and western then. Sometimes he’d show up on Saturday nights. He just did this on the side and pick up a few dollars. His name was Danny. I can’t remember his last name. He was a handsome guy, though. And, he sounded good. Sometimes he would come in on Saturdays and say to my mother, “Can I set up and play?” I think it was three of them and they would set and play so good. They would dance. And he had a couple of songs that were kind of –what shall we say — funny songs. Someone had a song, ‘Give Me the Pillow You Dream On”– I remember that as being an old country That was wonderful.
Well, Danny had another version of that song. His version was ‘Give Me the Pillow You ??? On’ I was in the place that night, and of course, I got ran out of there. – Real quick! But, I didn’t know what he was talking about so I questioned people later and no one in my immediate family would tell me, but I finally got to the aunt that always told me everything.
• The young aunt.
Right. She was the one who stayed in trouble all the time so she would tell me everything. Her name was Shannon. I miss her lot. She’s dead now. There’s nobody left in the family except my sisters and I. All of them have gone to their great rewards. But, Shannon was quite a character. Always doing something funny.
• Tell us a story about Shannon.
One of the things she loved to do was to pretend she was my grandfather. You know, we’d be hanging around. My grandfather had gotten kind of portly in his older age, and Shannon would get the pillow and stuff it in her shirt; and she’d find one of my grandfather’s hat, and she’d put it on just the way he wore it. Then she would go stand at the corner of the building and just let her stomach and that hat stick out. Because that was what my grandfather did. He would go out to keep track of us. He would always spy on us, but he would give himself away, because you would see that stomach and that hat stick out. Right around the corner – so, she would always pretend to be my grandfather.
• Did he ever catch her doing that?
Oh, ya. I remember one day she got caught. She got sent to her room. She wasn’t able to come out and flirt with the guys like she used to. I think she got grounded for about a week. So, we kind of slipped little things to her – a few pieces of candy, an ice cream bar or something that she wasn’t allowed to have. My grandfather caught her.
• What kind of a hat did he wear?
Let’s see – I guess you would describe it – it had on a rim. It wasn’t actually like a ten gallon hat, but it was the normal kind of hat that men wore during that time. I think he and the sheriff had a hat just alike, now that I think about it.
• A fedora?
Right, like a fedora. That’s exactly what it was like. That’s the kind of hat he wore, and he had several of those. He had his hat that he would wear on Sundays, and a couple of other hats that he wore during the week.
And, there was a garage that he kept his car in on the side, and, I can’t remember what kind of a car it was, but I was always excited to be able to take a ride in that car. It kind of reminds me like a Volkswagon looks now, only a larger model. And if I think of it long enough, I’ll come up with the name of that car. There weren’t very many people that had automobiles – specifically, there weren’t that many black people that had automobiles. My grandfather did have one. I want to say a Hudson, but I don’t think – it might be what it was. I’ll have to ask. My husband will probably remember. He’s real good at remembering stuff. That old car was around here for a long time, then, I think, my mother finally sold it. – Because she had to have some reliable transportation.
• I’m getting the impression that there were different black communities around.
Oh, ya. There wasn’t just one area. This was called the Montreat area. Of course, there was the Brookside community. As a matter of fact I think that was what Miss Sandy McClain? Jute joint was called – the Brookside Café. Then, the black community on the Craigmont side – there were quite a few black people over there. My grandfather’s brother owns property over on that side of town.
And, my cousin Floyd Rutherford – business oriented – owned his own dump truck. He also had one of the first Laundromats in Black Mountain. Floyd was always into something, and he was quite the lady’s man. He was married a couple of times, and – seems to me I could remember that there was always some scandal going around about Floyd. He was quite a handsome guy, so I can understand why the ladies were always after him, but he didn’t make it any better. He was a braggart.
There was also a little store owned by black people on that side of town. And, I can’t remember the name of the family that opperated that store. But, it was a little store kind of like Mr. Miller’s that sold bread, candy, potato chips, crackers – maybe stuff like flour and grits and stuff like that. When you didn’t want to go to the local A & P market that was in Black Mountain, but maybe you needed to pick up something for dinner that night that you ran out of. They kept that type of stuff in that store.
There were two black churches in that area. That’s where the main church was for the black community -=- Mill’s Chapel Baptist Church. Also, one of the churches – that’s a historical landmark and I really hope they do something to preserve that church. It’s right in the middle of the grave yard on Craigmont Rd. That was the original Thomas Chapel…it’s a Methodist church. It’s old – older than I am. They built a new church on – I believe it’s College Ave. That old church is standing there, and it’s just falling down. I hope that —-
• The white ?? church?
Yes. And it really needs to be preserved.
There was another black church that’s still here on Padgettown Rd.
• And what is the name of that church?
It’s a small church. They still have services there, sometimes. They have like three or four members. I just cannot think of the name of it right now. But, that church is still there.
My great uncle’s wife, Nora Rutherford, she was a preacher and had a little church — what did they call them? They were a people that did a lot of singing, dancing and shouting and I can’t remember exactly what the name of that religion was, but there were quite a few people who went to Aunt Nora’s church, because they liked the singing. That’s what they did. There wasn’t a lot of preaching.
Then, there’s another little church right here on – on East St. It sits in the back and I think that – it’s not a Seventh Day Adventist – it’s something else. Because they do have services back there, and people come from Arden to go to church over there. And they had a big reunion there this summer, — not a reunion – a revival. They had a big revival there.
So, those were the churches in the community. And there was one other area in Black Mountain that black people lived. That was on Blue Ridge Rd – leading into the road that goes into Blue Ridge Assembly – that same road where I was telling you about earlier that rears off into — it goes around and goes to the Blue Ridge Assembly. There were quite a few of my father’s relatives that lived over on that side of – I guess that’s called the Blue Ridge area. Now, where I was born on High Top Colony Rd. – that was a – oh it took about thirty minutes to walk from Blue Ridge Rd. to High Top Colony Rd. That was just a little short cut across the ridge there. There were quite a few black people on High Top Colony Rd. – back in the woods. We were brought back there. That’s where my father’s people were born. The Moorheads and some – well, basically Moorheads and ??? that were all in that area. And Keeters over on Blue Ridge Rd. They’re all my relatives.
• Were there ancestors Freedman?
Yes, eventually. But I don’t know what point they became Freedman. Of course, when I was born they were – I believe my father’s father was a slave, Ben Daughterty. I’m still in the process of doing the research on that. He is the only person that I know right now that was a slave.
My family – we’re calling the big reunion that we’re planning on having in – we’re going to have a smaller one in 2002 because of all the events that have been happening in the country. But, they’ve named it the P ???????? Connection. That makes me a relative of everyone in Black Mountain.
There were two slave women that came here with the Davidson family. From those two slave women the first black settlers of Black Mountain were born. Since there weren’t black men that came with them, I assume those children were sired by the master. They all got the same last name, Daugherty – P ?? Everybody in this valley is black and white. Now, the Daugherties somewhere decided I’m not related to you so I’m going to spell my name Doatrty ?? or Dougherty ?? I’m amazed at the ways they spell that name. Some of the black Daugherties say that “we’re not kin to that Daugherty” and I say, right, ‘how did you get here with that name?’ But, that’s how the first black settlers got here. They were from those two slave women.
Then, of course, people started migrating here and bringing more slaves with them. And there were a lot of freedmen that came to the area that were skilled craft people that came here to live, because they wanted to see the mountains. Then, they started building railroads and other things, and more people started coming. My ancestors are from the original ancestors that came from those two slave women that came with the Davidsons. The Davidsons when they first moved here – the Indians massacred the entire family. So the wife of Samuel, I believe his name was – I might be mistaken — she escaped with the two slave women and some of the children back to Old Fort. And, then another Davidson showed up – I believe that might have been Tom. He brought with him some family from England, and he came back to this area. And then people kept coming and coming and coming. Of course, more children were born.
I think the slave system, again, was a little bit unique in this area. Most of the people who lived in this area were not rich. So they treated – what might be considered slaves – they treated them more like friends and neighbors. They had to do that in order to survive. So, Caucasians were very protective of what they called their slaves. Sometimes they refused to sell them.
There is a story about one woman that fell on hard times, and she had a slave man, I believe, and she couldn’t support him anymore so she gave him to her sister with the stipulation that she would never sell him. That’s in the archives. That’s history and could be easily looked up. That was the way people treated each other during those times. That’s why I say Black Mountain was unique in that respect. Nobody was lynching anybody—nobody was beating people—you just don’t like to think about that stuff. I hate it. I think that’s one of the reason why I like Black Mountain so much because it has been that way. They have taken care of its people the best way it could. Most anything could be better. There are those times you live with what you live in. When the family got together to kill a hog – to slaughter an animal – everybody came. When they had gardens, you shared. If this one didn’t raise potatoes but raised corn, you shared. If one had the plow, but didn’t have a mule, you shared it. I remember that going on all the time in the community. No one was trading corn liquor, however. They sold that.
I’ll tell you a funny story about it. I’ll not mention any names. One of my best friends, his father had snuck a still that he was making his corn liquor in – he had it in the basement of his house. And, of course he had it right by his wife’s cook stove. Going down to the basement – I guess you have to heat – so he blew the house up. His wife said, get rid of that mess out of here. She thought that he gotten rid of it, but he had’t. He had taken it to the chicken coop. And, of course he had another accident. And, everybody in town saw the chicken with feathers flying all over the place. Because he blew it up again. I often wondered if he’d been sampling of little of his product. He got carried away and didn’t know what he was doing and blew up the whole thing twice. I always thought that was a funny story.
• Do you have any family mythology about the old days – before the Civil War?
I don’t remember any. When the old folks started talking about stuff like that, they would always chase the kids away. They were always doing an awful lot of talking and sending us away. I suspect that they had END OF SIDE ONE.